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A new UFO report out, the first independent review of UFO phenomena, 30 years.

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A 1968 report by Dr. Edward Condon of the Colorado Project included that close further

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extensive study of UFOs probably cannot be justified in the expectation that science

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will be advanced hereby.

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And then just two years later, a report by the American Institute of Aeronautics and

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Astronautics recommended, quote, a continuing moderate level research effort with emphasis

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on improved data collection by objective means and on high quality scientific analysis.

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In the current study, a nine-member scientific review panel heard presentations of UFO evidence

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by seven UFO investigators.

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Joining us today to talk about the review on the scientific panel's conclusions is

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the panel's co-chair.

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Von Eschelman is a professor emeritus of electrical engineering at Stanford University

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in Stanford, California.

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He joined us by phone.

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Welcome to the program.

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Thank you very much for having us.

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You're welcome.

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What kind of scientists were on the panel?

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From the scientific review panel, even for physical scientists, most of whom really had

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no prior exposure more than the normal citizens to the question of the UFO problem.

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Other half, as you mentioned, of the group where UFO investigators have been involved

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in that enterprise for some years.

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These were investigators the public has been hearing about for years or were they more

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quieter type of investigators?

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They have published in the UFO literature and have been sort of self-motivated and self-paid

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for many years.

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The attempt was made by Professor Peter Sturck who organized this meeting after conversations

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with Mr. Lawrence Rockefeller, who had an interest in it.

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They picked up prominent UFO investigators and asked them to give their best shot with

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that evidence.

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And you had to narrow down the evidence, right?

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Yes, we asked in particular for cases where there was physical evidence, something that

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a scientific panel might be able to get into in terms of evading it more to the scientific

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method instead of depending so much on an external project before.

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Would alien abduction have been ruled out?

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It wasn't mentioned.

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It wasn't mentioned.

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For some people the word UFO sort of means alien, space-bass, abdictions and government

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cover-ups and so forth.

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We define it as what it says, it's unidentified and we work on it to see if it can help identify

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it, but no doubt many things will remain unidentified.

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So the kind of physical evidence you're talking about where photographs with a metal part

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of things or what?

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What kind of physical evidence?

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Well, it's primarily photographs and accounts that had some backup from a case on air-pass

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instrumentation or radar or several sightings and different independent directions and so

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forth.

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So you had to have a verification by a few witnesses?

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Yes, but even more than that, something physical is possible.

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And the conclusions of the panel were?

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Well, it's pretty mild, I think, but they were.

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That's the UFO problem is not a simple one, and it's likely that it's a simple answer.

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The second conclusion I think the most important, well, if you're in comparison with the one

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by the common committee about there not being as much reason to continue studies in the future,

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we did that whenever there are unexplained observations, there is the possibility of

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science will bring something new by studying these observations.

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So the scientists should get involved in actually going out and investigating?

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Well, we didn't make that specific recommendation.

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We did say that some regular contact between the UFO community and physical scientists could

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be productive, and that we should concentrate on cases which include as much independent

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physical evidence as possible.

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I doubt very much if we all have any of the scientists change their career at this stage

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and actively pursuing these reports.

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There are a number of people doing that.

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I think a little bit of connection between the two can hopefully bring a little more

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scientific message into how some of the observations are done.

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Doesn't that then call out for having an organization that is trustworthy and is well

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adverse in scientific methods to go investigate them so that you're reunited in one place

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and can be, and any conclusions that come up with them, be a little more trustworthy?

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Well, one of our main conclusions was that the effort in France that has been going on

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for some 20 years, where there is government support to act as an intermediary between people

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who are making reports and people who might be able to help identify what is going on.

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Didn't we used to have the Project Blue Book and things like that?

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Yes, that's true.

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I think it was mainly dropped after the common report from the very negative aspects of there

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not being anything worthwhile to look at.

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Our conclusions are drastically different, but they do depart on that point by saying that

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we think it's presumptuous actually to say there's nothing there when you don't even listen

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to what the story is.

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Unfortunately, the field becomes so terribly polarized that you have extreme views that

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there's absolutely nothing there and try to say they don't want to even mention the word

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UFO, the initial UFO.

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They won't talk to people who say they have something on their hand they'd like to help on.

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The other experience was what you mentioned, the alien space path reduction.

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On the other hand, following that line of reasoning, when you have legitimate scientists who might

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be interested in investigating, if they're not as claxed as people who shouldn't deserve to be

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scientists anymore or even though...

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When they have that problem, I agree.

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I say many people won't undertake this because of that.

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At the same time, we're calling on some of the change in viewpoints from our group at least,

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either as physical scientists or as well in their respective areas.

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They're not necessarily going to get involved themselves, but they leave an occasional contact

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between these groups.

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That's quite fruitful.

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The one telling factor I believe of the French effort is that they gather thousands of reports

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and have the hundreds, they think it's something that ought to be looked into more concretely,

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and then they bring to bear scientific advisory people in France to help them on that.

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In that regard, the group is gathering the evidence.

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The more effort is put in, the fewer that remain that are unidentified.

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In other words, you get down to a relatively small number of things that they can't make

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any more heads they are on.

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They don't understand it.

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It is unidentified.

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The number is nearly as large as the number that we reported to begin with.

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I think that would be true if we started reporting at that time here.

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But that would take government money, in best of a way.

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In France, there is, not in the United States.

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Right.

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If we started something like that here, you'd have to have frameworks that up,

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and that means setting it up using government funding.

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Wouldn't that also then be looked at by skeptics who say, well, the government,

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but the government project, they're never going to want to find anything?

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We're not specific about who might fund it.

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We say that some form of regular funding would be at their pace.

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I think there's an interest in comparison with the search for extra-stressful intelligence

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in the United States, which was supported by the government for some years.

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Then, due to Senator Poplar and others in Congress saying that it's sort of like the

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old thing, it's not respectable science, so therefore the government shouldn't fund it.

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And the government did drop out in time.

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The study, the first one is FETI.

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The study effort has gone forward, and it's even more active now than it was previously.

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It's privately funded.

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And it, in fact, is moving into the mainstream of science.

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I was at an international meeting in the summer of 2006 where a great deal of the study work was planned.

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And he's added, and there are Nobel Prize winners and many funds involved in that.

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Yet, ten years ago, I would say that the study community and the U.S. Open News

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shared positions beyond the pale of respectable science in a comparable way.

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There may be a lesson there, by the way, that why did one move into becoming a respectable science

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than the other has not, in that not many people realize that the FETI community

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have unidentified radio signals.

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What they are doing, of course, is visiting at all radio frequencies in all directions

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and all times and trying to see if there's any intelligent signal leaked or purposely sent

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from another technological device.

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They never come forward and said that they had set that signal.

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That they have, without making much ado of it, often had very strong signals that they came out of genocide.

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In other words, they're like the U.S. Open News, they're in a position where they have a lot of things happening

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that may be considered possible evidence.

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They don't talk much about it.

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They can't be confirmed, they can't be repeated, and therefore it's not talked about in terms of a signal

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that should be investigated.

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That's why they make movies called Time Tax.

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Of the various things that have gone on, I think that's a little closer to how these things go

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than some of the ex file projects.

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Let's go to Michael in New York.

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Hi Michael.

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Hi, how are you doing?

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I'm the director of the New York Center for UFO Research and I'll move a little bit with

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the report that was just released, although I haven't read all of it.

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But I get the idea.

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Now there is another report that I think your listeners would be very interested in hearing about as well.

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First, let me say that I consider the Peter Spurrick organized report at Stanford University a tremendous effort

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and probably the most important investigation that's been done in the last 30 years.

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But having said that, I must add that there is another report, a secret one, that was financed by Lawrence Rock,

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a fellow of the same man who financed the Stanford University report.

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And that report goes a lot further than the secret report that's gone to a thousand world leaders.

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I have a copy of it and it's not easy to get.

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And it comes to the rather shocking conclusion, at least I guess to the general public,

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although certainly not to the people who have been laboring in the UFO community,

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that Earth is being visited by intelligent extraterrestrials at the present time.

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There's an elaborate worldwide cover-up.

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Let me ask about an estimate of your research.

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I'm sorry, I haven't read this.

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This report is called Unidentified Flying Objects, a briefing document.

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It went to the White House and went to Henry Kissinger, the producer of the plant.

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Where did you get it from?

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Blackwell, where did you get it?

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Through Rockefeller's Office.

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Through Lawrence Rockefeller's Office?

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That's correct.

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So it should be easy to track down.

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There's no question.

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I mean, it's been in the media a little bit that this report is there, so I have a copy of it.

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And there's no question that it was authentic and it's official.

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And it not only comes to the conclusion that it was being visited,

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but furthermore, Mr. Rockefeller has made some direct approaches to the White House.

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I had a number of meetings at the White House with the science advisor, John Gibbons,

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in an effort to have the President of the United States grant presidential immunity

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to a group of individuals who worked at the Pentagon in the 1960s and 70s

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who were prepared to blow the whistle if granted presidential immunity.

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So we're way beyond what the St. Louis University report as important as that is.

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So you think Lawrence Rockefeller actually went ahead to get the immunity from it?

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He definitely did.

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Alright, thanks for calling, Mike.

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Thank you.

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Well, you know, every time you talk about UFOs,

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someone's going to say there's a secret cover-up going on someplace.

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Yeah, I'd say that's a good example of polarization.

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But it would seem like...

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We'll call Lawrence Rockefeller's office.

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It was his foundation, was it not?

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He looked at the meetings at the district, was chairing and organizing.

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I was the chair of one aspect of it.

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So we know at least that he has a personal interest in this.

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This is his own bucks coming out.

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Well, he can afford it, certainly.

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He can afford it, and he has a personal interest.

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There's no mention of anything approaching the kind of thing that he could describe.

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Our report appears in his journal, Scientific Exploration, in a current issue,

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which is scientifically oriented, but it is a place where things that aren't

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accepted in the normal scientific literature with normal diseases.

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Aren't you fearful of opening now like we're seeing a Pandora's box here?

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Well, I haven't been exposed to this before myself, and I see some of that happening.

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I think it's a quite sober look that we've looked,

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and the recommendations are a logical thing, a lot of the evalutative state,

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and that we shouldn't... the so-called scientific community shouldn't just cut it off

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and tell you there's nothing there.

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Tell us about how you explained in your report.

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Things that were seen as UFO events, but how you explained them.

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Were there some of those things that were...

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Well, there were a few things that were obviously explainable,

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and that's what advantage of having continual contact in the future,

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and it relates to the French effort where a poster looked off and explained many of them.

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A particular example I found interesting was involving a strange light seen in the sky

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in Norway where a number of UFO reports had been coming.

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This was by two women at a remote location where they saw colored lights in a clear sky,

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night time sky, but no clouds, and colored lights display the flashing red and blues

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that moved slowly during the night and lasted for hours.

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Now, that's a kind of report that has been made ten years ago

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to a scientific group of people who are experts on what goes on in the atmosphere

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able to say just that the UFOs have the kind that you don't want to have...

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even look into because we know it doesn't happen.

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But in this case, the scientists at that time would have been wrong

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because now we know that there is something that happens very hindrush-guide.

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And when we asked about the particular display, there was a thunderstorm 120 kilometers away.

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The scientific story of some years ago would have been whenever there's a storm,

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the electrical activity, the light activity, is in the clouds and below.

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What has changed more recently is that we know that there are very interesting lights,

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red stripes and blue jets and something called elves that exist above the thunderstorm.

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And it's only in the last few years that this has been generally recognized

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and the time it's been turned into studies for improved information about atmospheric electricity and thunderstorms in general.

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So, that's an idea of some of the things that could not be explained.

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Well, I would say they tend to be on the anecdotal side, although there was some physical evidence.

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In one case, there was a photograph that Dr. Richard Haynes has been looking at for a very long time

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of somebody who didn't actually see what was in the frame of this, even though it was a Z5 camera,

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but had a shot that after development looked like a flying saucer kind of thing.

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And a great deal of assets have been put into trying to use scientific methods to analyze the photograph

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in a way that might be telling more about it.

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I would say that he was left with a feeling that just that's very interesting,

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that he's got to get efficient any further.

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People have investigated as far as they can, and it's got to really stay more than the fact that it's the honest part.

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Let me go to the phones to Dr. Eugene Epstein in Los Angeles.

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Hi, welcome to the program.

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Good afternoon. Good morning.

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I've retired radio astronomer and I've had a long-standing interest in UFOs.

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And like any physical scientist like Professor Eschelman,

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have been frustrated by the absence of physical evidence at the independent lab to go back and measure.

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In the early 1970s, I suggested that the research corporation give one of their discretionary grants to Professor J. Allen Haynes

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to do the following.

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A geophysicist by the name of Dirk Pearson had tabulated a variety of geophysical,

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octrial, paleontology type things that one could do on ground samples taken at locations where there had been visual observations of UFO landings.

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That is where you could go out and pick up some ground, see if it was charred or been exposed to magnetic fields or radioactivity, etc., etc.

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And several independent labs could analyze it, and that is due to the normal process of science, independent collaboration,

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and we asked the fact that analyses are as well.

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The fantasy was that if indeed there was some physical activity at those sites where such observations were made,

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that UFO landed out in the back 40 of the farm, one could publish in a referee journal such as the Journal of Geophysical Research

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a report titled something like, Anomalous Magnetic Fields and Radioactivity Exposure at Seven Remote Sites Around the World.

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And only as a footnote at the very end one could add, incidentally, our attention was drawn to these seven sites because there were visual observations of the UFO that landed.

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I'd like to know if the report, Professor Ashland's report, makes suggestions about doing such things again,

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and the second area where one could reexamine data, there's numerous surveillance satellites, some of which we're aware of,

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which are constantly monitoring activity above the atmosphere, that is, ICBM, things that are sent before programs,

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satellites which are well known, and other things which are able to detect things much lower in the atmosphere.

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Are those two sources of potential hard science kind of information being proposed in the report?

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Dr. Ashland, before you answer, let me just remind everybody that this is talk of the nation's science privates from national public radio.

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Go ahead.

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With regard to your first comment about ground traces or evidence of that type, there were several cases of that type that were discussed at the panel screen,

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and in particular, calling the attention of the U.S. people that might get involved in something like this,

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and in particular, in case and trans were related to a reported siding of a UFO in a particular area that

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careful studies were made of the vegetation and the Earth itself into the vicinity of where it was set then,

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and there were things that went on involving heat damage or radiation damage or something to some of the plants,

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and aspects of that type that you're mentioning.

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I'm not sure how far you could get away from the basic concept though,

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and I'm waiting until the end of the argument to say, well, our attention is called only because of the UFOs and all,

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but it might be a good try, and using fundamental science approaches to investigating possible traces

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is the kind of thing that we called on in our report.

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How extensive was the acting, indeed, the committee investigation?

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Would you consider it to be very extensive and thorough, or do you think it was just scratching the surface of this whole controversy?

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I think it's 10-up, you said, to be very thorough.

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We met four days in October and two days in November.

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It's nothing like the Colorado-Condon effort, but at the same time, the professional of the people was brought to this UFO

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and best-getters, these immunists, did this at some time, being asked to give their best case.

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So if you're going to do a really serious investigation, you can't just put six days in.

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You really would have to create a whole infrastructure for investigating these theories.

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Do you think that's what's needed?

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Well, that's what our report comes up with.

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It says it'd be good if there was a continued contact and that some kind of support was given,

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and we give the example of the French effort as something that we believe should be considered seriously for the rest of the world

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in the United States.

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Have you heard from anybody who says, yes, we're behind you?

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We'll send those kinds of resources into it?

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Well, individuals, but not on the last point of the hand, yes, we'll put the resources into it.

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I think that's probably a few orders to that report, just to get the staff in the last seat.

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Do you expect some support or reaction?

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Well, I'm sure there's this...

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Or are people just going to laugh at you and say another couple of cookies or cookie-panel?

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Well, somewhere in between, I think.

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There are UFO investigators who are going to continue no matter what we would have said.

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What our hope was, that maybe a few scientists might get a little more into it,

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not be quite so edgy about the association with the extreme in the UFO community.

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And I think seriously about whether some of the information about findings should be taken should be looked at more thoroughly.

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Well, I thank you very much and I wish you good luck in your efforts.

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Thank you very much for having me.

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And thanks for taking time out from this holiday weekend for joining us.

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My name is Professor Emeritus of Electrical Engineering at Stanford University in Stanford, California.